- To find out more about Indrus Piche work check out indrus.com
- King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine Paperback on Amazon
If you enjoyed this episode with Indrus be sure to have a listen to episode 024 Embodying love in a lonely world with Indrus Piche
You’re listening to Awake in Relationship, a podcast about intimacy, community and culture in a time of great change with Silas Rose. To celebrate Valentines Day we are replaying an early interview (episode 006) with Indrus Piche on the Lover archetype in dangerous times
Silas Rose 0:40
Greetings, my name is Silas Rose, and you’re tuned into Awake In Relationship. So we’re living in strange times. There is nothing like a pandemic to make one yearn for the beloved. And regardless of whether you’re single, or partnered in a long term relationship, chances are the lover archetype is showing up in your life in surprising ways. So what is the Lover archetype? And how do we work with this transformational energy as a force of healing for ourselves and in our world. These are some of the questions I asked my guest Indrus Piche, transpersonal therapist, couples counselor, and sacred sexuality teacher in Victoria BC. Please join us in this conversation about the shadow and gift of Lover archetype in dangerous times.
Good morning Idrus, welcome to Awake In Relationship
Indrus Piche 1:34
Thank you for having me today Silas.
Silas Rose 1:39
Yeah, it seems kind of timely, that’s for sure. You know, we are, as of this recording 14 or 15 days into a global pandemic. So it’s kind of a strange time, in the sense that the social distancing mantra is everywhere. So I’m just wondering how, how you’re dealing with this kind of radical change in our life?
Indrus Piche 2:06
Well, personally, I feel more hopeful, in a way and more grounded than I might expect, I have the luxury of not having any loved ones ill. And I’m very grateful for that. But I do share the concerns of many, it’s really challenging. And I can understanding the anxiety and the fear that’s coming up. But I also think there’s enormous potential here to look at the way we live, and our relationships with each other. And with nature. It’s a time I know, with my clients, a lot of people are really reflecting deeply about who they are, and how they want to live their lives, a lot about family is coming up. So I think it’s a time to be real, we’re being taught to stay present, we have each and every day, we don’t really know, the journey we’re gonna take with it. So I’m glad to be part of this experience. And I really want to learn what I can from it, and support others and learning what we may want to learn from it.
Silas Rose 3:38
Yeah, I very much share that kind of hopeful vision. And we are definitely in transformational times. This is the start of something, you know, very big. And hopefully, it’s gonna it’s gonna point us in the right direction. So, I’m really curious, for those that don’t know about transpersonal work, I’m wondering if you can tell us a little bit about that approach to psychological work and what go you intrested in this kind of work?.
Indrus Piche 4:11
Yes , transpersonal psychology as I share it with my clients has a deep root in Jungian thought and what we call positive psychology. So it very much is inclusive of one’s inner world. So what I get very curious about is, how is the inner world reflected out in the outer world? Are they in alignment? That’s a theme that comes up a lot, including in couples work, where they share kind of an inner journey and their joint imaginations is well as what’s happening for them in their outer lives, it also includes what sometimes is termed spiritual emergencies. And this is an aspect of this work that came out of things like near death experiences, people having spiritual experiences, like spontaneous Kundalini openings, journeys with psychedelics, and then the integration of experiences beyond what we think of is normal or everyday experiences.
Silas Rose 5:43
talk a little more about the crossover with Jung.
Indrus Piche 5:53
So in some ways, Jung was the first person to talk about in psychology that people will I’ll use the word soul, but I’m not using it in any sort of religious connotation. But the things that are most important, when you’re looking at people’s psyches. And across things like dream work, for transpersonal, psychologist dream work seen as the unconscious trying to give us messages to work within our conscious life. So that’s very much Jungian thought. Would you’d like a small example? One of the ideas that Carl Jung offered us was the idea of anima and animus as masculine and feminine force energies. And one of his ideas was around that the feminine would explore and maybe develop her masculine at midlife forward. And that for men, maybe explore emotions and what we would think of our term as feminine energies at midlife, what I find in my practice and even observation about the women I know, women are running a lot of masculine energy throughout their life. And at midlife, often, what I’m finding is a lot of women actually reclaiming their feminine. So it’s different.
Silas Rose 9:04
That sounds like a little bit of a throwdown with the Jungians and I’ve got a Jungian friend I want to bring on the show, so I’m gonna follow up with him and get his perspective.
Indrus Piche 9:16
That’d be fascinating. I can’t wait to hear it.
Silas Rose 9:19
So the topic of today’s discussion is about the Lover archetype in dangerous times, this lover archetype is really kind of popularized, particularly through the men’s movement. There’s a seminal book called King, Warrior, Magician, Lover by Robert Moore, who I think was a Jungian. The lover is kind of associated with the masculine. And of course, men and women have both masculine and feminine energies. What is what is your understanding of this archetype? How doe it show up differently for men and women?
Indrus Piche 10:21
Good question. So I am familiar with Moore’s work. It’s an old classic. And I’ll talk first about how I know the Lover and how I observe it in others. And I think it’s important to mention here Silas, that I don’t think we need to put a box around this for the individual. I think what’s more important is that people get curious about where they’re their own lover, their unique lover is alive and well and where it’s dormant, unexpressed, even been repressed. I think that’s a very important journey for people because I think the archetype of the Lover is way more important outside sexuality than we often even give ourselves time to think about.
Silas Rose 11:28
It’s a cultural force.
Indrus Piche 11:29
it is a cultural force. So some of the things that I play with in understand the lover in myself, and how I’ve seen it in others, is that basic idea the lover archetype when they need us, actually loves life. It wants life to be lived to the fullest, and it accepts and knows that life isn’t all pleasure, that it can be hard, challenging, but it’s still worth engaging. And it’s still worth trying to have our lifeforce energy, fully engaged with our own lives. That’s, to me one of the fundamental basis of this and for me, archetypal forces are actual energies that are at work both collectively and personally. The Lover also for me really honors and respects beauty in nature, and is willing to defend its place in the world, that it has a right to exist, that it’s not just things like green space.
Silas Rose 12:52
There’s a fierce quality to it,
Indrus Piche 12:54
Yes. In Moore’s and Gillette’s work that is one of the archetypal energies, they named it in the masculine as the warrior. So this is where you can see it in the environmental movement very often, they made the point that the Lover archetype will often be a foundational and the support piece of many other archetypal energies. So in the warrior, it understand sometimes that the has to be about a battle, but it should be aligned with justice, and what’s right for the collective, not personal gain. So the lover for us, so the lover energy, would temper the warrior energy never to be cruel, or never to have to use its force more than it’s necessary or needed. So this is the way the lover kind of underpins a lot of other archetypes. So in this way, yes, it might be asked to defend beauty, nature, which is a enormous topic in our world today. It’s one of the main things what are we going to do about climate change? What are we going to do about actually taking care of the great mother? This is where the lover archetype has to come forward and find collectively new value and a new way of expressing itself that isn’t necessarily in the past.
Silas Rose 15:06
I think that the lover is always kind of present in our world, but in most often in kind of in the shadow form, in many ways, the kind of generative power has been co-opted by market forces to sell us stuff that we dont need,
Indrus Piche 15:24
With social media its images that usually aren’t useful for the vast majority of people.
Silas Rose 15:34
Mm hmm. And in this time of kind of an epidemic of loneliness, there’s this kind of real hunger, for connection, for pleasure for comfort. Especially now many of us are trying to kind of realize connection through our screens, through zoom calls. Could we talk about that for a minute, because it really is this kind of amplification of something that’s been happening for a while in our culture.
Indrus Piche 16:29
I think we have to create a lot more opportunity for people to connect the sort of depth that they want to be connecting to others with. There is a longing I think, for intimacy. It helps make us more vulnerable. And one of the ways we learn about how to be more loving is the pathway of vulnerability. It actually is our greatest strength I think as humans when it’s used well. So maybe creating more opportunity. There is so much shadow in this whole area. I can understand why people really have difficulty finding their way towards connection and belonging with others. Even the idea of sexuality, which is our creation, energy, lifeforce energy, the whole thing about being a lover. We don’t make space have room to talk about it in any sort of normal way in our society.
Silas Rose 17:40
Yeah. And it’s, it tends to be kind of fetishized,
Indrus Piche 17:43
Or, I mean, we all know about the big shadow pieces, how the abuse, the actual violence that’s associated with it. But on a more subtle level, shadow can be really seen and has over I think generations become things like just not knowing or having any vehicles to talk about it. And explore things like desire. What do we find attractive? How do we relate to others if we’re not sexual with someone else?
Silas Rose 18:34
How does the shadow of the Lover kind of undermines those, who are in intimate relationships?
Indrus Piche 18:43
Well, I would say, first of all, very often, people don’t actually know themselves that well, as a lover. We have to connect with our own lifeforce energy, our own sexuality, before we can really become in union with another. So in relationships, very often you have two people who honestly haven’t had a lot of conversation about what they want, what brings pleasure. There’s a shadow aspect that certainly needs to be talked about more in the form of and I’m not against pornography. But what’s happening at the moment, it’s one of the fastest growing addictions in our culture, and very often, the wiring is towards something on a screen that isn’t a real person. It gets very confusing for some people, they can’t then be aroused, or actually connect deeply, or have intimacy with a real life person. There’s a lot of different shadow pieces we really need to address and work on.
Silas Rose 20:23
You’ve spent a good chunk of your professional life really niching into the whole sacred sexuality piece of intimate relationships. Sex tends to be kind of a real quagmire of emotions and feelings. How does sacred sexuality or perhaps Tantra approach desire in an authentic way?
Indrus Piche 20:56
In my exploration, actually, some of my first experiences and probably what led me into this area of interest in exploration, for a lot of my life, was having some experiences in nature, when I was a child. And many years later, realizing they were probably Kundalini openings. So a lot of basic tenants when you start exploring the world of what we now call sacred sexuality, and you will find that it means very different things to different people and different teachers. So very important that you find your own way with it. And you have your own sense of boundaries and what you want for yourself in the way that you want to explore it, I would say that some of the basic tenants that things like we’re always making love, that, that this idea that we start making love when we get in bed together, is actually counterproductive, that it doesn’t allow for one of the other pieces of the lover that I was going to mention, which is the high value of play. And sort of the idea that we go on an adventure. So in sacred sexuality traditions, you really tried to get rid of the goal. Well, if I, we do this, and we do that, then maybe you’ll have an orgasm, maybe I’ll have an orgasm, there isn’t really that high value placed on any kind of penetration, you may decide that may be part of it. But it gives you a much bigger sort of playground to play in, in a way, there’s a high emphasis on and this is a place that I am well past menopause, and have no natural estrogen running. The whole idea of arousal and desire gets very interesting in the 60s 70s 80s. It’s fun to play with it in explore. So one of the places that you can really play with is the arousal of all your senses. And in sacred Sacra sexuality traditions, the idea is that when we have a root chakra experience, they’re beautiful, they’re wonderful, but they’re actually a very limited experience for what we might experience. So when these traditions, you use your root chakra energy, and with breath, and movement, in sound, it travels and can be released to go through your body. And eventually you know, join with heart, which is very important if we had a world where sexual energy was in union with a hot energy would probably have a different world. And then the potential and this is some of the experiences that I’ve enjoyed. But again, good not to get attached to them. They come by grace, where the energy can travel up the body and I think what happens is, like other altered experiences or mystical states, you have activation of the pineal gland from the in union with your sexual energy and but I can say if that never happened or that, you know, to not not have that as a goal, if you can just come back to the idea that there’s a lot of play and a lot of exploration, and a lot of information that we’re never given that we have no idea about how to explore that. And that could be a place that we could really offer something different for the generations to come.
Silas Rose 25:29
Yeah, well, let’s drill into that a little bit. So I’m wondering what, would be a good sort of first step into that kind of exploration?
Indrus Piche 26:01
Well, I would say, sit down and talk to each other. First. I’m just really starting with basics, because for the years, I’ve worked with couples, and I’m now in the 10,000 hour mark. It’s amazing about what people in intimate relationships don’t often talk about. So making room if you haven’t already done it. What what do you know about yourself as a lover? Where where are your fears, where it’s a shame still left? How do you want to be desired by another? How do you want to be flirted with their high forms of foreplay? And then if you’ve had some of those conversations, what do you want to learn about? There are books now There are seminars all over the world really now? What do you want to experience together and play with together that you haven’t done before? So those are the sort of ways that the couples can work with it. And beginning ways and if you’re not partnered first of all, remember, we are always in relationship with ourself. And I know, it’s hard. And I know a lot of people have such longing and true desire to be in relationship with another. But I also want to say that I’ve spent half of my adult life in relationship with another and half in relationship with primarily myself. And there’s a lot of value in both. So the idea of self pleasuring is can be taken to heights that maybe a lot of people haven’t explored. You really get to work with your own energy that way. I think cultivating the sensuality, aspect of yourself in the ways that the lover is expressed or not expressed in yourself personally. It also acts as an attraction thing to others. You can feel it you can see it in people who have their own lifeforce energy running in there. It’s a form of confidence in ease, it’s like, I’m comfortable in my own body. I’m comfortable with who I am. And I also think that we have to get more creative about sharing with other people either in couples and non partnered, and I would like to actually see more of a mix of those groups, where people who are partnered, also have discussion groups, talks, and more things in the community. And you’re doing your part Silas just by opening up these topics to things like podcasts. It’d be interesting of people picked up on this and took some of these ideas and then formed a salon or groups. And I’d go further to say if you have people who you really feel safe and comfortable with things like even giving each other massages, and have a conversation about what kind of massage you want. Whether or not that there’s more sexual touch or not. And just being clear, but the idea of being touched when you’re not being touch, it’s really important in there is so much healing, when we normalize, and we’re clear and have agreements and people can find ways to be touched, that it’s really important for everybody’s well being,
Silas Rose 30:19
Before the pandemic, there has been big cultural movements around climate change and economic and social justice, it just sort of feels like we are moving towards some sort of big change. And historically, the Lover, you know, made the Renaissance or in the, the hippie generation played a really important role that kind of liberalization. What do you see as the role of the Lover at this time?
Indrus Piche 31:28
What if we let the Lover energy emerge more? What if we valued it more? I think one of the things that I didn’t mention in the beginning about a quality, that’s important, I think, in the Lover, and maybe more so right now than in other times. It’s the idea that the lover and this is part of the sacred, sacred sexuality tradition. We don’t make love through doing, this whole thing is in a state of being, we, we lift ourselves out of the everyday doing the busyness, that sort of thing and enter into that state, that in mindfulness traditions, like an everyday word now, which it wasn’t 20 years ago, when very much part of the early practice of transpersonal, psychology depth psychology, this idea of mindfulness, right. So the lover, helps us learn how to transition between doing to being, it knows that when we spend time in a state of being, we actually do things better. We have more of a depth of reflection, this is where some of the indigenous people could are great teachers, they’ve learned about being in nature, watching other aspects of of life and learning from it. So part of what we would have to do is actually connect to that being state to let the lover emerge down. And the lover energy, I think, is also important that we begin to really let our call it sex positive. Really start what if we started giving children information that was actually useful? What if we started actually not being afraid of this energy? It’s interesting when you’re talking about the masculine and feminine earlier, you know, the archetypes of four in both. And, you know, queen, mother, wise woman lover, the King, the warrior, the magician, the lover, the only commonality is the word lover, and it’s non gendered. So we can actually cultivate this as an energy, of balance of valuing things other than money, and accomplishment. It would be a form of sexual revolution, that we wouldn’t necessarily have to go to radical extremes. To make itself seen and known and valued, I think we could do it in a way that was very healthy, it would really help us create some of the solutions for the issues that need to be addressed. So it’s part of, you know, for the rest of my time on earth, to create as much opportunity as possible for people to actually get comfortable. And to be able to talk more normally about the areas of the lover of sensuality of sexuality. I think it’s coming Silas
Silas Rose 35:48
in so it’s already happening in terms of talking about consent.
Indrus Piche 35:58
Yeah. Betty Martin’s beautiful work.
Silas Rose 36:02
Exactly.Just slowing down. That sounds to me that the message behind the pandemic, but also in terms of how we approach our needs and wants in relationship, is really adding up the mindfulness and really tuning into our sentience and sense of sensuality, and the subtleties of them.
Indrus Piche 36:31
And I think everyone that’s conscious and want something better for themselves and the world on sec, in terms of sexuality. I happy that the me to movement isn’t exist in naming things. And I’m going to put myself out on a limb here, and I’m willing to fall off the branch. It’s one of the gifts of aging you, you can just say what you think more. I don’t like the whole punishment aspect of it. I don’t think it’s serving us. I don’t think men are going to learn things by being put in jail. I think they’re places of unlearning, and unconsciousness, because we don’t do them well. So I would offer a different vision that people who have had a history are part of what they land up doing is using abuse and power in the realms of sexuality, that they’re actually brought into a place of relearning and understanding. Even videos of people who have had horrific experiences under circumstances where they had to be exposed, and in give a chance for empathy and compassion, and relearning to actually take place. So although I’m very happy that the me to movement is happening. I’m not sure that I’m happy with some of the outcomes of it.
Silas Rose 38:30
Well, it seems like there there is. Kind of similar conversation that’s happening right now in terms of distinguishing between chronic bad behavior and good good men that do bad things,
Indrus Piche 38:50
Yes. And it’s not just men, I do as a woman want to state that. And the other thing I would say, and this also was going out on a limb and not very popular right now. Part of what I’m writing about in talking about with other people who identify as women, and we have used the terms masculine feminine, and men and women in this podcast. And I just want to absolutely acknowledge that a lot of people don’t identify, and I respect and honor and applaud that. And that’s also coming out in the open. Because I think it’s always always been there historically. And just an honoring of that and acknowledgement of it. But I also think those of us that have been in a woman’s position or identify as women, we have to do a much better job at teaching younger women. How to say yes, how to say no, how to listen to their bodies, how to be clear what kind have situations they might not want to find themselves in. And the whole idea of how to empower people so that they’re very, very clear. And that’s not to blame or shame, or in any way indicate that some people are not actually just victimized they clearly are. But I still think we have a lot of work to do around this. Mm hmm. All of us.
Silas Rose 40:28
Absolutely. Thank you Indrus, how can people who want to connect with your work, or you, you know, how can they can be in touch.
Indrus Piche 40:45
The simplest way is interests, indrus.ca And if they’re interested in getting on my mailing list, as you mentioned, I offer tetreats, right now I’m doing on on the four elements. And that’s partners, both same sex and men and women partners, groups four times a year, air, earth, fire and water. And we explore different kinds of intimacies. I also do a day for people who identify as women, beauty, blessings and bliss, we were going to do it on Solstice, but because of the world situation and the help, issue, we had to cancel, but I’ll be offering that again. And then I also work with another couple Robert and Judith Gas, and we teach both at Hollyhock. And at a beautiful retreat center in Mexico. And anybody who wants to learn more about any of those offerings could contact me and I would be happy to provide them with all the information they need.
Silas Rose 41:59
Again, Indrus thank you and stay healthy. Stay well, and we will talk soon
Indrus Piche 42:05
thank you very much and you all so Silas it’s been a pleasure.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai